Last week, I gave the final wrap-up to Tim Boetsch’s training camp and then headed down to Las Vegas to watch him and DJ (Demetrious Johnson) go to work. After going 2-0, it was time to celebrate the victories but one of them was not without some controversy as an online poll showed the majority of fans believed Torres should have been given the decision. This week I’ll give you my thoughts on both fights and both wins.
A Dominating Victory
First, I thought Tim’s fight went extremely well and I was happy to see him overpower, takedown, and generally dominate Grove from start to finish. I think the fight showed two things: the value of an overwhelming difference in strength/power and the importance of being able to maintain that advantage throughout the entire fight.
With Tim dropping down a weight class, we knew he was going to have a strength advantage going into the fight and he could use it to control Grove and put the fight where he wanted it, but could he maintain it all fight long without gassing out? That was the real question.
If you read any of the three installments on his training camp, you know how hard we worked to manage his training program to ensure that he’d have the conditioning he needed to last all three rounds. Anyone who has ever wrestled knows just how much energy it takes to take someone down. To do it over and over again for three straight rounds is extremely difficult and requires excellent conditioning to be able to pull off. There’s been plenty examples of guys who have gassed themselves out and lost the fight trying to do exactly what Tim did.
As a whole, Tim’s dominating performance showed that what we did worked extremely well and was a clear example of what happens when you have a strength/power advantage over your opponent that you’re able to maintain all fight long. Tim told me that Kendall said after that fight Kendall said something to the effect of, “Going into the fight I knew Tim was going to be stronger, but holy sh*t it was ridiculous how strong he was!”
So the take home message is that overwhelming strength/power absolutely is an advantage, but only if you’re able to maintain it throughout the fight. Had Tim’s conditioning level not been what it was, he very easily could have gassed out in the later part of the fight and ended up in a bad spot against a guy with good submissions. Fortunately, we made sure he was in the best shape that he’s ever been in and he was able to last all three rounds and get the unanimous decision.
Moving forward, I think Tim will be a force to be reckoned with at 185lbs. He’s not going to be an easy fight for anyone in the division and he’ll keep getting better. He works hard, is mentally tough, and is a strong and powerful guy for that division. I think the move down was good for him and I’m excited to see him keep progressing and working his way through the 185lb division
A Controversial Decision
After Tim’s big win, it was time for DJ to get in the octagon and fight Torres. I haven’t worked particularly closely with DJ over the years, mostly because he lives about an hour away and only trains at AMC once a week at most, but I’ve still followed his career closely and provided any training help I could along the way. I’ve seen him fight and judged his fights all the way back to his first fight as an amateur.
Going into the fight with Torres, everyone knew it wasn’t going to be an easy fight. Torres is a tough fight for anyone and he had a HUGE height and reach advantage on DJ. The plan was to really mix things up and keep Torres guessing – and obviously to use DJ’s speed/quickness to his advantage as well.
To be honest, I really wasn’t sure how this fight was going to go, I knew it was a tough fight, but DJ is scrappy and usually seems to find a way to win. Since I haven’t had a chance to watch the fight again yet, all I can do is tell you what I remember thinking at the time I was watching the fights live…
After the first round, I was thinking DJ had definitely lost that round and needed to stay off his back and move more. I think there was no question, really, that DJ lost the first round 10-9.
The second round was much better for DJ and I thought DJ clearly won that one 10-9. He was more active, had some takedowns and better positions, got the better of the striking, etc. I can’t remember what submission attempts Torres had in the round, but I never thought he was close to finishing anything or put DJ in any real danger in the round.
At that point in the fight, I figured it was tied one round each and it was going to come down to the third round.
About halfway into the third round, I remember thinking DJ was doing well enough to probably be ahead and just needed to keep it up. Not long after that, Torres swept him and ended up on top – in mount I think – and I was worried that had happened at a very bad time and DJ needed to get up quickly. Fortunately, he wasn’t able to keep DJ there long and the fight was back up standing and DJ finished with a takedown at the very end.
To be honest, I know Torres had several submission attempts in the fight but I can’t remember when exactly they occurred. I thought there were 2 or 3 that may have been close and another 2 probably that weren’t close at all. It’s pretty difficult to tell from TV or in the stands just how close a submission attempt really is to finishing a fight. Sometimes it looks worse than it is, and sometimes a fighter ends up tapping out to something that looks like it shouldn’t finish him. Unless you’re in the cage or ringside, it’s really just a guess as to how close a submission attempt really was.
As someone who has judged amateur fights using the Pride scoring system for 5 years and someone who has learned how to judge from Matt Hume, I’ll tell you honestly that I think submission attempts, provided they are a “catch” and close to finishing the fight, should count for a lot on the scorecard. In the Pride rules, “attempt to finish by KO or submission” is the #1 and most important criteria there is. The judges that are scoring the UFC fights, however, don’t use the same criteria and it’s much more vague just how much a submission attempt counts and what the real value of them is.
I think if DJ’s fight had been scored using the Pride/Dream scoring criteria, he very well may have lost the fight. Torres was probably closer to finishing the fight than DJ and neither fighter really scored big in “damage” which is the second criteria in Pride system.
One thing I’ve learned after years of judging is that unless you’re watching the fight from the perspective of actually judging it according to the criteria, it’s difficult to evaluate the fight fairly. I’ve watched several fights just as a fan and thought a guy a clearly lost or clearly won and disagreed with the decision only to go back and watch from a judging perspective and seen the fight totally differently. It’s one thing to watch a fight as a fan and a totally different thing to watch it as a judge, I know that much.
In any event, fortunately for DJ, the fight was in the UFC and if the judges didn’t consider Torre’s submission attempts to have great weight in the scoring, then I can see how they scored the third round for him and why they gave him the fight. I think the people saying Torres got robbed are just plain wrong.
I can see how you can make an argument that he should have been given the decision or say that it was a close fight that could have gone either way, but to say a fighter got robbed means he lost a fight that he dominated and at the very least I thought Torres lost the stand up, got taken down a bunch, and was in bad positions for a good portion of the fight. He certainly didn’t dominate DJ or do anything enough to say he got robbed in the decision. He went for submissions and didn’t get any of them. How close they were to finishing, only DJ really knows.
It also looks like DJ may have broken his leg early in the second round and still fought through it and made it all three rounds. I believe he’s still waiting to find out for sure, but his leg is definitely heavily damaged from a kick fairly early in the fight and the fact that he was able to fight through the pain and fight til the end says a lot about him and his mental toughness. Whether you think he lost or agree with the decision, you can’t deny for someone who is 5’3″ and should probably be in a 125lb class if they ever have it, DJ fights his ass off.
I think the future is bright for DJ and he’s in a good spot now to get a shot at the title in his next one or two fights. Personally, I think he’d probably beat Dominick Cruz and that’s a good fight for him if Faber doesn’t beat him first. DJ is a tough fight for anyone in the division and I think he’s shown he can fight with the best there is. He’s quick, never stops moving, is well rounded, and typically follows the strategy that Matt develops for him very well and makes adjustments effectively as the fight progresses.
A Good Night for AMC
Regardless of any disagreement in the decision win for DJ, it was a great night for AMC as we went 2-0 on Spike and both fighters got important wins. Tim was able to dominate and show he’s going to be a force in the 185lb division and DJ got a win over a top 5 opponent. Beating Kid Yamamoto and then Torres back to back is no small feat and I think it’s only a matter of time before he’s got a belt around his waist.
I know both guys trained their asses off for their fights and it’s always good to see hard work pay off. I put in a ton of time working with Tim and making sure he’d have the conditioning to last all fight and it was great to see him do exactly that and get the win because he was able to use his strength from bell to bell.
I’m not sure who we’ve got fighting next or when Tim will be back to train again, but I’m looking forward to watching both him and DJ get better as martial artists and continuing to test themselves against the best in their divisions. Both guys train hard, fight hard, and have worked to get where they are at and both are great fighters to work with and watch fight. As soon as Tim gets back, I’ll be posting more about what we’ll be working on in between fights.
Joel- I think you hit the nail on the head in that judging is very subjective and that different criteria (Pride vs UFC) can lead to different types of scoring. I remember a fight between Pat Curran and Takeya Mizugaki, that was very similiar in that Mizugaki was holding the “dominant” position where as Pat Curran was threatening off his back. Frank Mir was commentating the fight and was VERY vocal about how well Pat was doing, how great the sub attempts and transitions were, and how Mizugaki wasn’t doing anything productive with top position. In the end Mizugaki got the nod and Mir was livid about the decision. However this also shows his own personal bias and background as a BJJ fighter. No matter what there will always be some kind of bias involved in a judges decision. (do you score for top control or sub attempts)
Also- most judges in the UFC aren’t watching the same fight we are seeing on the tv screen. The judges at ringside may see things, or miss things that differ from the televised broadcast. In Rua v Machida 1, one of the judges said, from his vantage point he thought Machida won the fight, but after watching the fight on TV he also would have scored it for Rua.
As far as solutions go- I think the 10 point must for boxing can work for boxing but lends itself no favors to MMA. the suggestions of 1/2 point, additional judges and what not may work- personally I kind of like the 1/2 point, since judges are unwilling to score 10-10 in fights, and the use of a sudden victory round as well for draws.
Lastly- man do i ever hate when people say “don’t let it go to the judges”